印物進行中：是什麼讓書成為書 (Printing in Progress: What Makes a Book a Book?) | Feb-Mar, 2025 in Taiwan

(S) Shisi Huang
(T) Tzu-Yun Wei

T:
請十四自我介紹。Please introduce yourself, Shisi.

S:
我叫十四，是Bungee Space的負責人，與其他兩位同事Tong和Suri一起負責商店的日常運營。店裡主要有artists’ books, clothing/wearable designs, programming/events, coffee, 我主要進行內容的策劃、構思和選擇，兩位同事主要負責協助、設計、編輯等。另外我們工作室還有兩位共同創立人Nanxi和Xiao，主要在經營北京的空間，我們三人的工作室名為於 3standardstoppage，也是我們第一家店的名字。

My name is Shisi, and I am the person in charge of Bungee Space, working alongside two colleagues, Tong and Suri, to handle the store’s daily operations. The shop primarily focuses on artists’ books, clothing/wearable designs, programming/events, and coffee. I am mainly responsible for curating, conceptualizing, and selecting, while my two colleagues assist with tasks such as design and editing. Additionally, our studio has two co-founders, Nanxi and Xiao, who mainly manage the space in Beijing. The name of our studio is 3standardstoppage, which is also the name of our first store.

T:
何時以及為何進入藝術書籍推廣\販賣\收藏的領域呢？在上次談話中，提及了2016設立3standardstoppage時，是專注於攝影書籍，在後期轉為圖像研究，方便和讀者分享這樣的轉變緣由嗎？

When and why did you enter the field of facilitating, selling, and collecting artists’ books? In our previous conversation, you mentioned that when 3standardstoppage was established in 2016, it focused on photography books but later shifted toward image studies. Could you share the reasons behind this transition?

S:
三個人是研究所同學，在就學期間，第一個學期結束時把設計系關了，SFAI是美國西海岸（也許是全美國）唯一一個純藝術學校，我們在校時全校BFA和MFA加起來才800多個人，校風自由，和紐約分系或分資源比起來，我們學校的資源都是融合在一起並開放使用的，但學校生活就像一個激進的美麗的bubble。

上學時候很愛呆在圖書館。我們校區離海灣很近，是一個義式庭院式建築，圖書館非常特別，像是古時候讀書人的書房。有一個區是攝影書的區域，而且當時的圖書館員非常樂於分享，妳問一本書他會延伸推薦更多books，很多稀有的書籍他也樂於分享，是個博學又慷慨的人。當時中國獨立出版的發展很豐沛，我們常在社交網絡看到新書消息，非常好奇，礙於地理位置看不到也感覺很可惜。

畢業後某天和Xiao閒聊，說到大部分的獨立藝術書店，經營上都似乎比較窘迫。主要獨立出版的書籍是一個成本較高的類別，且需要大量的空間和人力、時間成本，導致書店難以盈利。觀察到一些書店常常喜歡印製文化周邊來補償收益，但似乎僅限於此。

我和Nanxi是最好的朋友，學生時期很愛研究獨立設計師品牌和一起逛有趣的買手店。我們觀察到設計師品牌店，傾向以大桌面或書架展示大開本漂亮印刷品，展示「好看的」時尚相關的書裝飾「品味」。我們覺得以這種裝飾的姿態出現的書架很無意思，心想如何讓real wearable designs and real art books coexist，在一個不衝突又可以互相對話的狀態呈現，因此組成我們店這種比較混雜的空間，即是真正的服裝買手店也是真正的獨立藝術出版書店，有時也可以是一種alternative art space。3standardstoppage就這樣開始了。

The three of us were classmates in graduate school. During our first semester, the design program was shut down. SFAI (San Francisco Art Institute) was the only school on the West Coast (and perhaps in the entire U.S.) dedicated solely to art programs, with a total of just over 800 BFA and MFA students when we were there. The school had a liberal and open atmosphere, and compared to the segmented resources typical of New York schools, our school’s resources were fully integrated and openly accessible. Life there felt like living in a radical yet beautiful bubble.

During our time in school, we loved spending time in the library. Our campus, located near the bay, was housed in an Italian-style courtyard building. The library was particularly special, it’s like a scholar’s private study room in the old time. One area was dedicated to photobooks, and the librarian was generous and willing to share knowledge. If you asked about one book, he would recommend many others, even rare books, creating a warm and intellectually stimulating environment.

At the same time, independent publishing was flourishing in China, and we often saw announcements about new books on social media. We were curious about these publications but sadly not being able to access them due to our geographical distance.

After graduation, one day Xiao and I were chatting about how most independent art bookstores seemed to struggle financially. Independent publishing is a costly category, requiring significant space, labor, and time investments, making it difficult for bookstores to make a profit. We noticed that many bookstores tried to compensate by producing cultural merchandise, but it rarely went beyond that.

Nanxi and I, being best friends, had always loved exploring independent designer brands and visiting unique concept stores when we’re students. We found that many designer stores tended to display large-format, beautifully printed books on big tables or bookshelves, often fashion-related, as decor to signify “taste.” However, we felt that these bookshelves, used merely as decorative elements, were boring. This sparked the idea of creating a space where real wearable designs and real art books could coexist in a way that didn’t conflict but rather engaged in a meaningful dialogue. That vision led us to establish our store as a hybrid space—functioning as both a genuine clothing concept store and an independent art publishing bookstore, while also serving as an alternative art space at times. This is how 3standardstoppage began.

T:
當時遇到比較印象深刻的困難是什麼？
What were some of the most memorable challenges you encountered at the time?

S:
當時在舊金山店時，有不少很好的客人，設計系的學生、大企業的設計師、畫廊工作的人等等，在其他活動也會常常遇到，久而久之我們發現大家談論話題都差不多，變成同溫層的感覺，我們更希望是更開放的、打破學科的對話，我們希望在更混雜的環境下繼續經營和探索。

北京是一個很適合的地方，充滿生機的所在、什麼人都有，新舊交雜的地方，他兩決定先回國。但我當時剛拿到很不容易申請的O-1簽證，就決定繼續留在美國試試看。沒想太多，大箱小箱的，就從舊金山搬來了紐約。

沒想到來到紐約後，開啓極度困難模式，店面太難找、節奏太快、沒有朋友、天氣太冷，各種不適應，花了快半年時間找店鋪無果，終於決定放棄。當時北京（的店）已經開起來了。決定離開前的春天，nanxi說「沒關係，大不了就回來。」回去前，我又覺得「來都來了，至少幹點什麼再回去，不如租一個了臨時店面做一個「不計得失」的pop-up計劃。」

在Canal St上看到一個介於藝術跟商業之間的real estate management的項目，我就和其manager談，想辦一個藝術書店+programmings（screenings, artist’s talks, exhibitions, performances等）的pop-up project, 一個月，辦完我就離開。 那個manager很喜歡我的提議，給了我一個很大的空間，並以低於正常很多的租金支持了這個項目。當時一共組織了十組人，通過服裝設計師室友的聯繫，也認識很多她的RISD校友們，其中不少非常有趣的傢俱設計、服裝設計的創作者參與到首次發生的「bungee project」。2019年的7月開幕，意外來了蠻多人。這個月中也遇到願意租店面給我的房東了，並在同年開始紐約的空間，這是搬來紐約的第一個正式店鋪，在東村。不久後COVID開始，持續了兩年，店的狀態就是關關開開，經營得很波折，但這樣循序漸進，也做了不少項目。

When we were running the shop in San Francisco, we had many great customers—design students, corporate designers, gallery workers, and so on. We often ran into the same people at other events, and over time, we realized that the conversations revolved around similar topics, creating an echo chamber. While it was a supportive community, we wanted something more open, a space for breaking down disciplinary boundaries and fostering dialogue in a more diverse environment.

Beijing seemed like the perfect place for this—vibrant, full of energy, with all kinds of people and a mix of old and new. The two of them decided to return to China to pursue this direction.

At the time, I had just obtained an O-1 visa, which was very difficult to get, so I decided to stay in the U.S. and give it a try. Without overthinking, I packed everything into big and small boxes and moved from San Francisco to New York.

When I arrived in New York, I didn’t expect to turn into an ”extremely difficult mode”—barely finding a storefront, the overwhelming living pace, no friends, and the cold weather made everything even harder to adjust to. I spent nearly six months trying to find a shop but had no success, so I finally decided to give up. Meanwhile, the shop in Beijing had already opened.

Before deciding to leave, Nanxi told me, “It’s okay, worst-case scenario, we’ll just go back.” But before heading back, I thought, “I’m here already, I should at least do something before I leave. Why not rent a temporary space and create a pop-up project without regret?”

I came across a real estate management project on Canal St, which was somewhere between art and business, and I spoke with the manager about organizing a pop-up project—a combination of an art bookstore and programming (screenings, artist talks, exhibitions, performances, etc.) for one month. After the event, I would leave. The manager really liked my idea and offered me a large space at a rent much lower than usual, supporting the project.

I organized ten groups for the event, and through my roommate, a fashion designer, I got to know many of her RISD alumni, including some brilliant furniture and fashion designers who participated in the first-ever “Bungee Project.” We opened in July 2019, and surprisingly, we had a great turnout. During that month, I also met a landlord who was willing to rent me a space, and later that year, I opened a permanent location in New York, in the East Village.

Shortly after, COVID hit, and the store faced a lot of difficulties, frequently opening and closing. Despite the challenges, I was able to continue the project in a gradual and steady way, working on several initiatives during that time.

{ 回到談論從攝影書轉向到圖像研究 Back to discussing the shift from photobooks to image studies }

S:
這兩個概念是有區別的，攝影書在學時看得很多，也是書店一開始的主要興趣。慢慢發現不少攝影書的作者打開思路，以蒐集、挪用的圖片的書籍也進入視野，類似圖像裝置般的存在，其中也擴及了網路、AI對於圖像帶來的影響，也脫離了以往傳統的攝影形式——攝影和圖像又大量交織但又不能完全等同。

另一方面，這八年多書店的經歷也讓我們觀察到也可以注意到近期攝影書成為一種趨近「印刷類藝術品」，一種「藝術收藏品」的概念，朝著畫廊的商業經營方向走去。我們的想法和興趣也在發生變化。

之後我們選書的關鍵詞轉向「圖像研究」和「圖像批判」。圖像批判是什麼？圖像之間如何產生聯繫——把日常生活里的事物放到類型學比較的語境中。圖像批判讓一張圖和盡可能多的圖建立聯繫，並且生效。不能是藝術史上的聯結，而是把聯想的權力交給每個個體。

圖像研究可以通向各個領域，包括設計、電影、食物、建築，甚至聲音和文學。或許我對店裡內容的呈現也對走進來的人提出要求，要求大家五感俱開的，咖啡，請打開嗅覺和味覺味覺，轉身或許某一本書是討論咖啡相關的歷史（fair trade、殖民歷史等），如何與其他選物，通過開放式聯想做關聯，編織一張布滿線頭的網。

These two concepts—photobooks and image studies—are indeed distinct. Photobooks were something I explored a lot during my studies, and they were also the primary focus when we first started the bookstore. Over time, however, we noticed that many photographers were expanding, incorporating collected and appropriated images into their works, which opened a broader spectrum, one that resembled image installations. This also led us to consider the effects of the internet and AI on images, departing from traditional photographic forms. Photography and images intertwine significantly, but they cannot be completely equated.

Moreover, over the past eight years of running the bookstore, we observed that photobooks had started to trend toward becoming “printed artworks,” or “art collectibles,” and were moving toward a gallery-style commercial model. Our own ideas and interests also evolved alongside these shifts.

As a result, we began selecting books based on keywords like “image studies” and “iconography.” What is iconography? How do images connect with one another? It’s about placing objects from everyday life into a typological context, comparing them. Image critique involves creating connections between one image and as many other images as possible, making those links meaningful. It isn’t about art history connections, but rather giving the power of association to each individual.

Image studies, on the other hand, can lead to many different fields—design, film, food, architecture, and even sound and literature. Perhaps the way we present the content in our store also asks something of the people who walk in, inviting them to engage with all five senses—smell and taste when enjoying coffee, for instance. A turn around the store might reveal a book discussing the history of coffee (fair trade, colonial history, etc.). We encourage visitors to make connections between items through open-ended associations, weaving together a web full of loose threads.

T:
原來妳是這樣想咖啡的，作為選物的一環。
Think of coffee, as part of the selection…

S:
是的，咖啡是我們搬到現在這個位置才開始學習的，咖啡也很難。咖啡的學習會打開很多扇門，比如說哥倫比雅，樹是長什麼樣的、氣候是怎麼樣的、那裡的藝術家、獨立出版等等，咖啡也讓Bungee聚集了各種各樣的人——完全不讀書的人，等待咖啡的五分鐘去好奇的去翻書了。

Yes, coffee is something we started learning about after moving to this current location, and it’s been quite challenging. Learning about coffee opens many doors—such as the origins of Colombian coffee, what the trees look like, the climate, the local artists, independent publishing, and so on. Coffee has also brought together a wide variety of people at Bungee—those who don’t typically read books, but who, while waiting for their coffee, curiously flip through books.

T:
而且書也是一個開放後，可以玩耍、著地的地方。
And books are also a space where, once open, you can play and ground yourself.

S:
是的，從選書、選服裝，create new recipe for the story, event planning, 串連起來，一樣是一個五感的狀態，讓人走入這個空間後，全方位的產生反應。
Yes, from selecting books and clothing to creating a new recipe for the story and event planning, it all comes together as a sensory experience. When people step into the space, it stimulates a full, multi-dimensional response, engaging all their senses.

Interior of Bungee.space. Photo by Bolin.

T:
在上次的談話中，我們聊到了「是什麼讓書成為書？」也是一個悖論，而十四提到關於書的生命，可否分享妳怎麼看待書作為一生命體以及其攜帶的能動性？
In our last conversation, we talked about “What makes a book a book?” as a paradox, and you’ve mentioned the life of a book. Could you share how you view a book as a living entity and the agency it carries?

S:
上次聊到書店，我們也聊到一個問題是「What more can a bookstore do?」這個問題也許可以回答「What makes a book a book?」

想想什麼時候會看書？以一般大眾而言，可能是在你沒有行動自由的時候，我可以透過讀書瞭解一個地方，不用去到那裡我也可以透過書來認識。對我自己選書來說（一個完全不緊跟潮流的人）我常常回頭去看一個出版社過去5、6年出的書，去翻一翻，瞭解他們的想法和思路有什麼改變。

比如有一陣子，店裡有不少關於香港的書，很多其實不是在香港發行的書，可能在英國出的（政治和歷史原因）、也有些不是香港人自己拍的，可能是一個外國人剛好在香港雨傘運動時拍的，是一種以「特權」的狀態保存、記錄下的現況。書籍的內容和生產會帶出一個矛盾甚至扭曲的context。這會延伸到，疫情時的書、到香港還是香港時的書，以及政治運動前後的書、和更近期的書。

In our last conversation about bookstores, we also discussed the question “What more can a bookstore do?” This question might also answer “What makes a book a book?” Think about when you read a book. For the general public, it’s often when you don’t have the freedom to act. Through reading, I can understand a place without physically being there—I can get to know it through a book. For me, when choosing books (as someone who doesn’t follow trends), I often look back at the books a publisher has released over the past 5 or 6 years, flipping through them to understand how their ideas and approach have evolved.

For example, there was a period when there were quite a few books about Hong Kong in the store. Many of them were actually not published in Hong Kong, but rather in the UK (due to political and historical reasons), and some were not even taken by Hong Kong locals. They might have been taken by a foreigner who happened to be in Hong Kong during the Umbrella Movement. These books are a form of “privileged” documentation, capturing the current situation. The content and production of the books bring out a contradictory or even distorted context. This extends to books from the pandemic era, books from when Hong Kong was still Hong Kong, books before and after political movements, and even more recent books.

S:
又有一陣子店裡有很多「動物」書。有一本很有意思的，叫 Animal Books For, Lous Martens的家庭互動，帶孫兒孫女做動物剪貼冊，是一本非常豐富的藝術書，每過一段時間出一次新版，現在出到第三版本了。於是就把他一一陳列出，橫著看豎著看，看他們都在講什麼。其中一本Spector Books 好幾年前出的 Dear Imaginary Audience，是SFMoMA的一個展的衍生冊，在社交媒體上分享的帶有令人毛骨悚然的標題的有趣貓咪照片，通過互聯網基礎設施在無形中流通的數字圖像，或者受雇於網絡上的匿名工人來製作道德上可疑的內容或將其從網絡上刪除。互聯網對我們日常生活的影響，網絡圖像如何日益定義我們的私人和社會行為，天花板上偷看人類的喵咪。這本書現在也在我們的Archive Collection裡面。

There was also a period when the store had many “animal” books. One that was very interesting is called Animal Books For, by Lous Martens, which focuses on family interactions, where grandparents create animal scrapbooks with their grandchildren. It’s a very rich art book, with a new edition released every once in a while, and now it’s in its third version. So, we displayed them all, looking at them horizontally and vertically, observing what each of them was saying. Among them was Dear Imaginary Audience, a book published by Spector Books several years ago, which is a derivative book from an SFMoMA exhibition. It features creepy cat photos shared on social media, digital images circulating through the internet infrastructure, or content produced by anonymous workers hired on the web to create morally questionable material or remove it from the internet. The book addresses how the internet influences our daily lives and how internet images increasingly define our private and social behavior, like the cat peeking down on humans from the ceiling. This book is now also part of our Archive Collection.

S:
還有一本書， Horse，馬作為勞動動物、運輸工具，到具有道德地位的家養寵物。也講馬的種類到人的階級，吃馬肉的歷史到馬肉為什麼越來越不受歡迎等。 還有上次提到的一本書，《馴國》，是一本講狗的書，講人對狗的馴，國與國的馴，包括很多關於國際關係的論文和議題。

（從不同出版社的發展、書的誕生、書的設計和其圖像攜帶的延展）在這些關聯中，議題和圖像彼此牽連成為巨大的網，這也是這個空間（Bungee Space）裡會發生的事。那這些書（的生命）是否在閱讀的購買和體驗後就結束了？有些書將帶領人的意識，開始行動或晃動那些已僵化的準則。這也是上次提到：書的循環、進入第二生命階段，發生在購買和閱讀之後，便是基於此而進行批判或行動，也是書的價值所在。書店可以是一個商業體，但商業也可能只是一個幌子。許多藝術畫廊，藝術也只是一個幌子。

There is another book, Horse, which explores the evolution of the horse from a labor animal and transport tool to a domesticated pet with moral status. It also discusses different horse breeds, the relationship between horses and social classes, the history of eating horse meat, and why horse meat is becoming less popular. Another book we mentioned last time is No Country for Canine, a book about dogs that explores human domestication of dogs, the taming between nations, and includes many essays and topics related to international relations.

(From the development of different publishers, the birth of books, to the design of books and the extension carried by their images) In these connections, issues and images are interwoven into a massive web, which is something that happens in this space (Bungee Space). So, do the lives of these books end after the purchase and experience of reading? Some books lead people’s consciousness to begin to act or shake up those rigid norms. This also relates to what we discussed last time: the cycle of books, entering their second life stage, which happens after the purchase and reading. It is through this process that critique or action is triggered, and that’s where the value of the book lies. A bookstore can be a business, but business could also just be a mask. Many art galleries, for example, also use art merely as a mask.

T:
若書為一生命體，基於十四過往在北京和紐約的經驗，在兩地的文化差異下，這樣的生命體又如何體現相異與相似之處？
If books are viewed as living entities, based on your past experiences in Beijing and New York, how do these living entities manifest differences and similarities under the cultural contrasts of these two places?

S:
書店本身作為獨立個體時，區別是不大的。主要是在美國是比較自由，在中國國內是比較多限制。而書店希望是可以讓更多不同的人參與的開放性討論，促進生命循環，而不是營造烏托邦，更不能是一幫精英主義的自嗨。大家都以為做書店很簡單，但其實沒有，這件事沒有那麼快樂，大家想得太浪漫了。
When a bookstore functions as an independent entity, the distinction is not significant. The main difference is that in the United States, there is more freedom, while in China, there are more restrictions. The goal of the bookstore is to foster open discussions that allow diverse participation, promoting a cycle of life, rather than creating a utopia or catering to elitist self-indulgence. Many people think running a bookstore is easy, but in reality, it is not. It’s not as joyful as people imagine; they tend to romanticize it too much.

T:
那這間店，以收益來說的話，方便透露營收類別比例是多少呢？
As for the store’s revenue, can you share the proportion of revenue categories?

S:
其實我沒有特別算過，不過我認為最健康的方式，是自己養活自己，不用和別人要錢，或依託於投資人或者funding，或被牽制內容等。書的販賣目前可以打平，讓我們不定期進新的書。其他像咖啡和衣服能夠補到店舖租金、人員，和物資的開支。到目前為止基本上算穩當、健康的。

同時間，當想發出的聲音很多、想批判的事也很多，我的物慾相對比較少，在經營時也沒有遇到太大的困難，我們的經營步調也是調比較慢、以穩為主。希望我們是該踏踏實實的做事情，別人沒有耐心做的那些事。

Actually, I haven’t specifically calculated it, but I believe the healthiest way is to be self-sustaining, without relying on others for money, investors, funding, or being constrained by content. The sales of books are currently breaking even, allowing us to regularly bring in new books. Other items like coffee and clothing help cover store rent, staff, and material expenses. So far, it’s been relatively stable and healthy.

At the same time, when there are many voices I want to express and many things I want to critique, I find that my material desires are relatively few. I haven’t encountered much difficulty in managing the store. Our business pace is also slow, focusing on stability. We hope to do things steadily, focusing on the things that others may not have the patience to do.

T:
我也（在限時動態）看到你昨天去拜訪 UGLY DUCKLING PRESSE！
I also saw on your Instagram stories that you visited UGLY DUCKLING PRESSE yesterday!

S:
是的，他們剛好有 Press Tour! 那棟樓也有 Primary Information。UDP的工作室太有趣了，直接有一台Letterpress machine。雖然我們自己是書店，但對這些獨立出版社如何維持高品質、定量的「自造」產出模式也很好奇，也有問他們工作室的人，大部分的人還是生活得比較辛苦的。雖然比較辛苦，但這已經是我覺得蠻理想的工作了。

Yes, they just happened to have a Press Tour! That building also houses Primary Information. UDP’s studio was so interesting, they even have a Letterpress machine. Although we run a bookstore, we’re also very curious about how these independent publishers maintain high-quality, small-scale “self-made” production models. I asked the people at their studio, and most of them still live relatively tough lives. Although it’s tough, I feel it’s actually quite an ideal job.

Shisi’s book selection for What Makes a Book a Book?
from left to right:
Image Generation by Michel Egger
No Country for Canine 馴國 by Wu Chuan-Lun 吳權倫
谱系 by Leif Elggren 雷夫·艾尔格伦

T:
對於「是什麼讓書成為書？」此問題，十四的回應是…
For the question “What makes a book a book?”, what’s your response?

S:
去年在一個書展上, 我做了一個program, 名為「, fishermen sang.: Listen to That Book」，主要是拿一些音樂研究、做音樂的人寫的書、詩歌、和圖像、歷史研究相關的書籍，以及中文的譯本，做了一個 Performative Lecture。其中有兩本書是可以放在這邊講，其中一本叫做 Nahma: A Gulf Polyphony/نهمة: تعدد الغناء الخليجي 是法國record label, publishing house FLEE project 做的一本關於波斯灣深海的pearl diver採珠人，裡麵包含大量採訪、散文、歷史文獻等。

這是一個千年前就存在的產業，是相對成熟的產業。當時就有許多大船出海專門挖珍珠的工作。那個海域是非常寒冷的，你要潛到深海，需要有強壯的體魄，這些人一部分是阿拉伯人、一部分則是奴隸來擔任 diver。只有在夏天5-10月有機會出海，這本書主要是在淡水珍珠養殖業出現時的歷史紀錄。船上職能分配清晰——船長、舵手、助手、採珠人、和一個特別的職業——唱歌人，ta作為精神動能，在艱苦的航行中，獨唱或者做領唱人。這讓我想到現在的大科技公司裡工作場域的遊樂園、攜帶寵物上班等policy，這種所謂「人性化」的剝削、勞動環境，在千年前就已經出現。

這個project主要有兩張vinyl，一張是千年前的音樂，另一張是FLEE 邀請現在的音樂人、製作人，根據千年前的音樂，再重新創作。所以是兩張黑膠加上一本書。「Nahm」是海怪的意思，「Nahma」則是唱歌的人，透過足夠大的聲音，足夠好的音樂，蓋過海上可怕的聲音。

Last year, at a book fair, I organized a program titled “, fishermen sang.: Listen to That Book.” It mainly focused on books related to music studies, books written by musicians, poetry, imagery, historical research, and Chinese translations, presented in a Performative Lecture format. Among them, there are two books worth mentioning here. One is called Nahma: A Gulf Polyphony/نهمة: تعدد الغناء الخليجي, published by the French record label and publishing house FLEE project. It is about the deep-sea pearl divers of the Persian Gulf, and contains numerous interviews, essays, and historical documents.

This was an industry that existed thousands of years ago, a relatively mature one at the time. Large ships would go out to sea specifically to harvest pearls. The waters there were extremely cold, and to dive to such depths, one needed to be physically strong. Some of the divers were Arabs, while others were slaves. They could only go out to sea between May and October. This book primarily documents the history during the rise of freshwater pearl farming. The roles on the ship were clearly defined——captain, helmsman, assistant, pearl diver, and a special profession — the singer. As a spiritual motivator, the singer would sing solo or lead the crew in song during the grueling voyage. This made me think about the work environments in today’s tech companies, with policies like office playgrounds or allowing pets at work. This so-called “humane” exploitation and labor environment was already present a thousand years ago.

This project mainly consists of two vinyl records. One features music from a thousand years ago, and the other is a reinterpretation of that ancient music by contemporary musicians and producers invited by FLEE. So, it’s two vinyl records along with a book. “Nahm” means sea monster, while “Nahma” refers to the singer who, through a loud enough voice and good enough music, drowns out the terrifying sounds of the sea.

S:
另外一本是《譜系》。這本書對我來說比較是個人的影響。LEIF ELGGREN / 雷夫·艾爾格倫的個人寫作，我買來中譯版。2019年第一次讀，後來每年都會重讀這本書。他比較像是個人多年的紀錄，很多不一樣的事情——可能是多年復發的惡夢、詩歌、當代藝術、神跡、權力和暴力、慾望和死亡——非常自由的寫作。

裡面讀到一篇是關於他自己的藝術項目，也是最近想比較多的事：他們建了一個自己的王國——埃爾加蘭·瓦爾加蘭聯合王國。這個王國是什麼？是所有國家的國境線。回想到國家這個概念，邊界是虛擬的、美國邊界為什麼要建牆？因為你無法區分邊界在哪裡。他們的概念是所有國境線就是他們的國家，並有兩個國王。

這邊我讀一下這段：

「我相信國境線，特別是富國的國境線，最近變得越來越嚴，越來越重要，有太多東西怕失去，有太多東西要保護，有太多關於地球村共同體，以及類似的廢話了。過去幾個月裡發生的事情，說明我們在過去很長一段時間，和未來的發展方向，我們不需要跨過某個國界，因為我們就是國界。埃爾加蘭·瓦爾加蘭聯合王國就是國界，我就是國界。我們已經向聯合國提出建議，他們可以在調節地緣衝突時，和埃爾加蘭·瓦爾加蘭聯合王國合作，要求人手援助。」

這是他和另一雜誌的採訪，當時採訪者問他：

「自從你們在1993年冬天宣佈獨立後，有沒有別的國家正式承認過你們國家的合法性？」

他說：

「沒有一個國家承認，我們曾向現在所有現存的國家發過信，問他們是否願意承認我們是一個新的國家？或者，如果他們不想承認我們，不想和我們接壤的話，會不會和周邊其他國家抵制我們？我們的物理領土沒有那麼大，不過是我們星球上的邊界地區，它是一個細細的線，但是我們無法踏入自己的領土，我們都離散的生活著。我們曾在1994年申請加入聯合國。」

我覺得這段話很好概括了離散這件事、地緣政治、國際政治，以及這個世界怎麼變成這個樣子。像我們這樣離散在、活在所謂「別國領土」上，生活是如何。我們這些人構成這些點，合起來，成為精神上的國家，而不是物理上的領土。我想這本書對我的影響是這樣。

The other book is Genealogy. This book had a more personal impact on me. It’s the personal writings of LEIF ELGGREN, and I bought the Chinese translation. I first read it in 2019, and since then, I’ve reread it every year. It’s more like a personal record of many years, documenting various different things—perhaps recurring nightmares, poetry, contemporary art, miracles, power and violence, desire and death—written very freely.

One of the pieces I read in it is about one of his own art projects, which is something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately: they created their own kingdom—The Kingdom of Elgaland-Vargaland. What is this kingdom? It is the borders of all countries. Reflecting on the concept of nations, the borders are virtual. Why did the United States build a wall at the border? Because you can’t define where the border is. Their concept is that all national borders are their kingdom, with two kings.

Let me read a paragraph here:

“I believe that borders, especially those of wealthy countries, have become increasingly strict and more important. There is too much to lose, too much to protect, and too much talk about the global village and similar nonsense. The events of the past few months show that, for a long time and for the future, we don’t need to cross any borders because we are the border. The Kingdom of Elgaland-Vargaland is the border, and I am the border. We have suggested to the United Nations that they can collaborate with The Kingdom of Elgaland-Vargaland in regulating geopolitical conflicts and request humanitarian assistance.”

This is from an interview with another magazine. The interviewer asked him:

“Since you declared independence in the winter of 1993, has any country officially recognized the legitimacy of your state?”

He replied:

“Not a single country has recognized us. We sent letters to all the existing countries asking if they would recognize us as a new state. Or, if they didn’t want to recognize us or didn’t want to border us, would they join other countries in boycotting us? Our physical territory is not very large; it’s just the border area on our planet. It’s a thin line, but we cannot step onto our own land; we live in diaspora. We applied to join the United Nations in 1994.”

I think this passage really encapsulates the idea of diaspora, geopolitics, international politics, and how the world has come to be this way. People like us, living scattered across so-called ‘foreign territories,’ experience life in this way. We, these people, form these points that, together, become a spiritual nation, not a physical territory. I think this is the way this book has influenced me.

S:
另一本書，要說回來關於我希望未來可以做的事，是關於公共檔案的事。不知道什麼時候可以完成，但我們已經開始設立Bungee的Archive，也許有條件的情況下，未來會有小小的閱讀空間，或是個人建立的公共圖書館。

這是一本圖像書 Veronika Spierenburg’s In Order of Pages，是Kodoji Press好幾年前出的，是關於一個比利時的富商捐贈了一個圖書館，叫做Sitterwerk Library，他在生前有一構想，希望圖書館的構成事任何走進來的人，都可以建立自己的collection，比如A蒐集了五本，圖書館便可以記錄下這樣的歸類和標記。也回應到之前我跟你說的，Bungee curate的方式，所以他這本書有意思的是，他們確實把這樣的圖書分類法實現了，叫做 Radio Frequency Identification (RFID)，以我的理解就很像每本書有自己的定位晶片，讓圖書館員可以追蹤那本書目前的位置，實現研究者以自己的方式建立自己的圖書館。這位藝術家他在這個圖書館做了很久的research，並以左右有聯繫的圖片，做出排列。按照頁碼排列，接續著圖像間的關聯性。這本書也算啟發了我在店裡的安排和未來的方向。

還有在前幾週在CUNY看了一個放映，叫做1952-2024 American Political Advertisement，把這些年的政治宣傳廣告，全部70個編輯，在一起2個小時的看。後來出了一本書，Read My Lips 講到archive這件事，需要透過人的閱讀和翻閱才能讓它活起來. Activate another kind of library 也是未來的方向。

Another book, related to what I hope to do in the future, is about public archives. I’m not sure when it will be completed, but we’ve already started setting up Bungee’s Archive, and maybe, under the right conditions, in the future there will be a small reading space or a personally built public library.

This is a visual book, Veronika Spierenburg’s In Order of Pages, published by Kodoji Press several years ago. It’s about a Belgian wealthy businessman who donated a library called Sitterwerk Library. Before he passed away, he had an idea that anyone who entered the library could create their own collection. For example, if person A collected five books, the library would record and categorize them. This idea relates to the way Bungee curates, as I mentioned before. The interesting thing about this book is that they successfully implemented this classification system using Radio Frequency Identification (RFID). From my understanding, it’s like each book has its own chip, allowing librarians to track the book’s current location, enabling researchers to build their own library in their own way. The artist did extensive research in this library and arranged images that are related to each other, following page numbers and the connections between the images. This book also inspired how I organize things in the shop and future directions.

Also, a few weeks ago, I watched a screening at CUNY called 1952-2024 American Political Advertisement, where they showed 70 edited political advertisement commercials from these years, played together for two hours. Later, a book titled Read My Lips was published, discussing the idea of archives needing to be brought to life through people’s reading and flipping through them. “Activate another kind of library” is also a direction for the future.

T:
Thank you for sharing!
謝謝十四。